Pat Robertson interview on Road Map, Jerusalem
Michael Freund The Jerusalem Post, September 5, 2003
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&c
id=1062646044388

'If Bush Divides Jerusalem, US Christians Will Rise Against Him'

When US Televangelist Pat Robertson talks, millions of Americans listen. In
a wide-ranging interview with Michael Freund, the US Christian leader warns
George W. Bush against dividing the Land of Israel and creating a
Palestinian state

Driving along a verdant stretch of road near Virginia's popular beaches, it
is hard to imagine anything in this pleasant and tranquil area stirring up
controversy nationwide. The pastoral and well-tended lawns of Regent
University, home to the Rev. Dr. Pat Robertson's Christian Broadcasting
Network, seem far-removed from the harsh media criticism which, from time to
time, follows some of his remarks on his daily television broadcasts.

Recently, Robertson found himself at the center of a storm after he called
upon his followers to pray that three liberal justices of the US Supreme
Court be influenced from Above to retire, thereby clearing the way for US
President George W. Bush to appoint social conservatives in their place.

The 73-year old former Republican Presidential candidate and leading
Christian televangelist also came under fire for criticizing US policy
toward Liberia. Robertson had repeatedly suggested that America should have
stood by Charles Taylor, the country's now-ousted president who has been
indicted for war crimes, because he is "a fine Christian".

But despite the tumult, Robertson and his Christian evangelical operation
are still going strong. His influence extends far beyond the confines of
northern Virginia, thanks in no small measure to the global television
network that CBN has become since he founded it over four decades ago. Its
news and religious programming now reaches 180 countries in 71 languages,
and is viewed by over 1 million Americans daily.

In the past two decades, Robertson's followers have become a prominent force
in domestic US politics, pushing an agenda that is unabashedly conservative
and self-confident. Though his forthright and controversial views may get
him into hot water occasionally, Robertson does not shy away from speaking
out on issues that concern him.

Interviewed in his office, Robertson was especially keen to discuss an issue
that has been on his mind a lot as of late: the US-backed road map and how
it will affect the future of Israel. Though a staunch conservative,
Robertson does not mince words when it comes to criticizing US President
George W. Bush over his desire to establish a Palestinian state and divide
the land of Israel. As far as Robertson is concerned, Bush is playing with
fire, and making what he considers to be "a terrible mistake".
Following are excerpts from the interview:

The Jerusalem Post: Over the past 2000 years, the Jewish people suffered
terribly as a result of persecution by Christians. Yet nowadays, some of
Israel's most vocal supporters, particularly in the US, are Christians. Are
we witnessing some kind of change in Jewish-Christian relations?

Dr. Robertson: I am not sure the change is as dramatic as you think, it is
just that now it is being noticed. My mother years and years ago always told
us to bless the Jews and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. My father at the
time was a senior US Senator and she would write messages that he would
deliver to a group of senators who would gather together to pray and read
the Bible, and she was always very pro-Israel in those days. There is a
repository of that kind of feeling, of great warmth towards Israel and
Jewish people.

Q: How do you explain that? Many Jews find that hard to believe.

A: The first thing that we have to realize is that evangelical Christians
take the Bible very seriously, so the Old Testament figures, who were all
Jewish, are to them their heroes in faith. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses,
Aaron. The prophets. David. All these people are preached about, talked
about, and discussed and become part of our evangelical culture. The other
point that we have to keep in mind is that Jesus was Jewish, and all of the
early apostles were Jews. There was a distortion of that fact in the Middle
Ages, when the Catholic Church got rather extreme against the Jews, and
Martin Luther did the same thing in the early days of the Reformation. But
in terms of American evangelical Christianity we take it very seriously.

Q: Some observers have argued that behind this support for Israel lies an
ulterior motive, a desire to convert Jews, to entice them to become
Christians. Shouldn't Jews be concerned?

A: I really don't think so. Our organization, on an annual basis, has about
38 million people make decisions to accept belief in Jesus. 38 million. If
that's the case, it would be a little silly to say, 'well you are spending
all your time trying to entice a few thousand Jews to become Christians'.
But I think there is a bond of kinship that has no ulterior motive at all.
As a matter of fact, it is sometimes costly. It isn't easy for a person like
me to be allied with Israel as closely as I am, because I have death threats
from certain Muslim extremists, so this kind of thing puts you in risk of
your life.

Q: You mentioned the Bible. Now, the Bible states that G-d gave the land of
Israel to the people of Israel as their eternal inheritance. But George W.
Bush is trying to divide the land of Israel and create a Palestinian state.
Do you think he is defying the Divine will?

A: I don't think there is any question about it. I think he has made a
terrible mistake. You know the prophet Joel speaks about those "who divided
my land", that there is a curse on them. I think I would walk very, very
softly if I were George Bush in this regard. I think he has been talked into
this by the US State Department, by the European Community, by the Arabs, to
take away Judea and Samaria, or what amounts to the Jewish homeland. I think
he is making a terrible mistake. The crux will be when he tries to divide
Jerusalem, because Yasser Arafat is not going to give up until he gets east
Jerusalem as his capital, as that is a symbolic thing for the Arabs. If Bush
is responsible for the partition of Jerusalem, he will be defying a prophecy
of Jesus that is very dear to all of us. I think he's going to incur the
wrath of the L-rd if he does that. I hope he doesn't, but there is certainly
a lot of talk about it.

Q: If Bush presses ahead with the road map and compels Israel to divide the
land, do you think that American Christians in 2004 should take that into
consideration when deciding whom to vote for?

A: I think they will, but the problem is that the election is between two
people. It isn't George Bush versus perfection, it is George Bush versus a
liberal Democrat and the chances are that the liberal Democrat is as bad or
worse on Israel than he is, and will be worse on a whole lot of other issues
than he is. And so, in terms of the election in 2004, I don't think his
moving ahead with this road map is going to cost him any votes. It may cost
him favor with the King of Kings, but not necessarily with the electorate.
But if he moves against Jerusalem, if he tries to partition Jerusalem, then
I think Christian leaders across the country will rise up and speak out very
forcefully against him, and it could hurt him in a close election.

Q: As a Christian, how do you feel about the fact that Israel turned over
Bethlehem with all of its important Christian shrines to Palestinian
control?

A: I was in Norway when Shimon Peres was there, working on those Oslo
Accords. I wasn't aware of the momentous nature of what was being done, but
I think Oslo was a tragic mistake. And I think Ehud Barak gave away the
farm. He made concessions that were undreamed of, yet Arafat spit in his
face and started the intifada. I think it was a terrible thing to give up
not only Bethlehem, but Joseph's Tomb in Shechem (Nablus), Hebron and some
of these cities which played such a large role in the early formation of
Israel. To give them up to Yasser Arafat is unthinkable. Barak tried to do
it, and I think he did so under the pressure of Bill Clinton and it was a
mistake.

Q: In your opinion, is the roadmap merely another reincarnation of Oslo?

A: I think so. I think this road map is ill conceived, and I don't think it
is going to survive. Just look what happened with Hamas and Fatah, Yasser
Arafat's private little army, they are continuing to operate against Israel,
as is Islamic Jihad. And recently, Hizbullah has been stirring up trouble in
southern Lebanon and shelling Kiryat Shemona. I think there is only one way
to deal with the situation - you guys have to go in and take over that
territory. Establish martial law, disband the Palestinian Authority, begin
to reeducate the children and take over the television and the radio so the
propaganda stops. Then, over a period of years, see if Palestinians of good
will can be put in office -people who can understand the situation. Because
as long as Yasser Arafat is there, there is not going to be any peace. He is
a terrorist. All he knows is killing. The Palestinian Authority has never
built anything, they have failed to establish any economic infrastructure,
they haven't provided jobs, they have wasted money, there has been theft and
corruption and there has been oppression and torture of those who disagree
with them. I mean, it's a terrorist state. How can Israel enter into
partnership with people like that?

Q: Why do you think Israel has refrained from dismantling the Palestinian
Authority?

A: The United States has held Israel back from doing what was needed. What
was needed is to go in, like we went in to Afghanistan. They needed to go in
and flush out this nest of terrorists and do the job completely. Not just a
few little tanks surrounding Yasser Arafat's headquarters and all that
nonsense. They need to get in there and clean up. That takes force, and it
takes resolute courage and it also takes the cooperation of the United
States. Unfortunately, they don't have that. The US holds them back from
doing what they need to do.

Q: In recent years, there have been reports about the persecution of
Christians living in areas under Palestinian control. Are you concerned
about that?

A: Oh, yes. We have interviewed people on our television station, those who
have been tortured, those who have gone underground for fear of their lives
and for fear of being captured by the Palestinian Authority. There is no
question that the Christians have suffered terrible persecution. Bethlehem
was essentially a Christian town. To the best of my knowledge, that whole
area has been cleansed of its Christian population. I don't know if they
have been killed, resettled or forced to move abroad. I don't know where
they have all gone, but now the population is essentially Muslim and it didn
't used to be that way. So that is just one example of the type of
persecution that has been going on against Christians.

Q: Do you think Israel does a good job making its case to the American
public?

A: (Laughs) It does a terrible job. They have the worst public relations of
anything I can conceive of. They have got the truth but they have just such
a hard time communicating it.

Q: There have been a number of reports in recent months highlighting the
Christian right and its growing influence in the Republican party and the
White House. How much influence do they wield?

A: I ran for President in 1988, and in the process I trained up to 300,000
people in precinct politics. When I got through, I organized the Christian
Coalition and these people served as the cadre for the organization. I think
over the years this group has been extremely effective in having an
influence in the Republican party, particularly in terms of framing issues
and supporting candidates. We had a goal of doing a certain number of
things, and at the end of ten years, we had completed most of those things.
The last goal was to have a born-again Christian in the White House and we
have one. We have born-again Christians in charge of the Congress. We have a
born-again Christian in charge of the Justice Department, we have born-again
Christians throughout government and they have an impact. But in terms of
really influencing the nation, I think the big networks, the big newspapers,
the New York Times, the Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, the Los Angeles
Times, they are the ones that really have the influence. I think they are
probably the dominant voices in our society. But I think evangelical
Christians now have a significant voice, which is what I had hoped to see
happen.

Q: Have you thought of running for President again?

A: I am too old, too tired and too smart to try something like that again.

Q: You have come under criticism on a number of occasions, most recently
regarding the US Supreme Court and your call to replace some of its
justices. What do you think the role of religion and religious leaders
should be in a democracy?

A: I don't think the organized Church should dominate government policy and
force a particular point of view onto the lives of individual people. That
is what we have been charged with, but I don't believe that should be the
case. But on the other hand I think it is appropriate to speak out against
injustice. In terms of the Supreme Court, I regard the capture of our
constitution by 5 non-elected people as being a form of tyranny. We are 270
million people, and 5 un-elected officials determine our morals and what we
are going to do, when our children can pray, whether they can read the
Bible, or whether they can read the Ten Commandments. The Constitution never
intended for the Supreme Court to have this kind of power.

Q: How should America deal with countries such as Saudi Arabia, particularly
in light of all the recent revelations regarding Saudi complicity in
September 11 and their sponsorship of terror?

A: I think it is time that the cozy relationship between the leadership of
our nation and the banking and oil interests has got to stop. We have got to
recognize that the Wahhabis are vicious. We must tell the Saudis we are not
going to stand for this anymore. You are exporting terror, you are funding
terror, and you cannot do this anymore. We are protecting you, and we are
not going to continue protecting you with our military umbrella if you are
continuously undermining Israel, undermining other regimes around the world
and trying to export this fanatical brand of Islam. You've just got to stop
it. They are here operating in the United States, they are operating in
Africa, in the Middle East, and they are trying to undermine Russia, as the
Chechens are connected with that Wahhabi group. I mean it is a very
dangerous thing and I think that we have to deal with it forcefully but so
far there is nobody in our government that has got the will to do that.

Q: How can American citizens, particularly American Christians, support
Israel in this difficult time? What would you suggest that they do on behalf
of Israel?

A: The best thing is to discuss the legitimacy of Israel, the legitimacy of
Israel's claims to the land on a Biblical basis. I think that for the
American Christians, and for Israel itself, the strongest claim to integrity
rests strongly in the Bible. The Land was given by G-d. It was won by
conquest maybe around 1200 BCE. We are talking about a long history. I think
we need to emphasize that these people [the Jews] are the Chosen People and
that there is a prophetic significance in what is happening. These are our
friends and we need to support them, especially Israel, as the only island
of democracy in the whole Middle East. I think Christians need to speak out
and I am not sure they are.

Q: What about prayer?

A: That goes without saying. The Bible says, "pray for the peace of
Jerusalem". That is what I was taught as a little boy and we need to pray
that G-d will bless His people, and that the Jewish people will be
bless-able. But there is much of that which goes on. There is prayer and
there is interest and there is love and there is concern but I think they
have got to speak out. There is a terrible wave of anti-Semitism going
around right now among the left and the Jews themselves must come together.
There are many Jews who haven't made up their mind. There are many Jews in
America who think Israel is a militaristic aggressor, I'm sure you know
that. Jewish society needs to come together. Perhaps in Israel it is the
same thing. I'm sure there is a debate going on there now, like "let's get
out of this territory, lets give the Palestinians everything they want, lets
just give them the whole thing so that we can have peace, peace at any
cost." It is tragic. Patrick Henry said "Is life so dear and peace so sweet
as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" And the only answer
to that is: "Forbid it, Al-mighty G-d!" That is what he said. And I think
that life isn't that dear and peace isn't that sweet. But it is hard to
convince people of that in today's world.