By: Aaron Lerner Date: 4 September, 1997
Yona Baumel's son Zecharia, has been missing in action along with
Yehuda Katz and Zvi Feldman since the Battle of Sultan Yakoub on
June 11, 1982.Yona Baumel on the MIA issue
By: Aaron Lerner Date: 4 September, 1997
Yona Baumel's son Zecharia, has been missing in action along with
Yehuda Katz and Zvi Feldman since the Battle of Sultan Yakoub on
June 11, 1982. IMRA interviewed Baumel, in English, on 3
September,. The entire interview follows:
IMRA: What sense do you have as to why the Israeli government
hasn't been emphasizing the provision of information about the MIAs
since that is one of the items which did appear in the agreements
with the Palestinians.
Baumel: What's happened is this: If we go back historically, they
have the conception that these boys died in the battle. The
Syrians and the Rejections Front buried four caskets in the Jewish
cemetery in Damascus a couple of weeks after the battle. In fact
it was on July 4th, 1982. And the Israeli opinion was, as they
stated, that the Syrians never lied to them about something like
this. They buried four Israeli soldiers. There were four MIA's.
The case is closed.
On Yom Kippur 1983, as a result of the pressure of then Senator
Charles Percy, the Red Cross opened the graves . They found one
Israeli soldier, Z. Lifshitz and three Arabs. This was checked
out beyond the shadow of a doubt.
About a year and a half went by and as far as the army was
concerned the affair was cold. Meanwhile information was coming in
about live prisoners.
In the Cairo Agreement which is part of the Oslo Agreements, the
PLO committed itself to providing information about the MIAs. The
late Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin stated that Arafat knows but is
afraid of [Syrian President] Assad. That he can't tell the truth
because it probably would point a finger at the Syrians.
What's happened recently is that the PLO has come out with four
versions and you can choose your story.
In view of their past conceptions - anyone who knows the Israeli
army knows that once they liken to a conception its well nigh
impossible to rout it out. They are convinced that these boys
are dead. Despite the fact that there has been ample proof that
they have been alive or at lest some of them are alive.
I'd like to qualify that because the bulk of our information is
about two. It doesn't mean that the third one isn't alive but
we've gotten information from various sources about two of the
three being alive.
IMRA: What benefit is there to a terrorist group to hold onto
people without it being known?
Baumel: There are two answers to that: First of all,
historically the Syrians have been known to do this. There was a
soldier by the name of Reuven Livitz, and this story was documented
by a reporter from "Yediot Ahronot", Yechezkiel Meiri, who wrote
a book about it. They held him for 16 years incommunicado and
they kept telling the Israelis that they knew nothing about it and
one day they came and they said 'you have something we want - now
we are ready to exchange him.' The Arab mind doesn't work with a
stopwatch. That's the first thing.
The second thing is that even from the beginning there were people
from the intelligence community who felt that these boys were being
held for diplomatic reasons, for political reasons rather than for
monetary reasons or prisoner exchange.
One thing that galls me is the false pride of the Israeli
intelligence system. They told us at one point that its impossible
that they have them and we don't know about it. There were
plenty of things that they didn't know about and they should learn
a little humility.
IMRA: In your case we have the dramatic event of the half of the
dog tag. Its about as dramatic as you can get.
Baumel: There's an even more dramatic event. For every thing
there is a counterpoint. That's what really drives us up the wall.
Princess Zena is an ex-wife of King Hussein who had a daughter by
him and who freely comes and goes in his palaces and throughout
Jordan. She herself comes from royal blood . We met her in Cairo
and you could see the royalty written all over her. She had
married a PLO Colonel by the name of Saalah Ta'amri, a prisoner of
war in Israel during the Lebanese war. Araleh Barnea and his wife
enabled her to visit her husband in prison during the war. So she
would come to Israel to visit her husband.
Now in 1984 to show her appreciation, she brought a wax impression
of Zach's complete "diskeete" [dog tag] - not just the half but
the whole one. Now I'm sure you know what an Israeli diskeete
looks like. In their wisdom, the army decided not to tell us. It
was around five years before they broke the news to us. Then they
had the gall to say that everybody knows what a half a diskeete
means. And this was the first chink in their armor. If they had
to come out with a statement like this, when they knew that three
years after the battle the diskeete was whole - they are in
distress. Later it got worse.
IMRA: You have made efforts to meet with Palestinian officials
from time to time. Do you get any genuine feedback or is it all
baloney.
Baumel;: I have a lot of friends in the Palestinian PLO community
and its a give and take situation. I was invited to Tunis twice.
Before it was possible for Israeli citizens to go there, and I was
treated royally by the PLO. That was in 1989. I've worked with
many Palestinians over here and in other counties. At one point I
was told by impeccable sources that Arafat had given an order that
nobody is permitted to discuss this subject except he himself.
There have been chinks in the armor. We have received information
from Palestinians over the years. We have never paid for
information as such. Our policy has always been that we will pay
for proof - we will pay lots for proof - we have backing for it -
but we won't pay anything for information. And this has made it
difficult. On the other hand, people who have supplied information
have not reaped any profit from it.
IMRA: It seemed for a moment that there was momentum when there
was the revelation of the location of the body of the Zsaadon and
it seemed like there was going to be momentum - if they helped out
on this maybe they will help out on other cases.
Baumel: Arafat is walking a very fine line between the United
States, Israel the Palestinians and the extremist elements -
Hamas, Islamic Jihad. And he is a survivor- he is well educated in
how to walk this fine line. Recently he gave the Americans
information as to where they were buried. The Americans had it
checked out. It simply wasn't true. Nobody was there.
When the delegation of Israeli Arabs from the Knesset recently
visited Syria, one of them, [MK] Saleh Tareef, came back saying
that someone who he can't identify told him that he has information
that leads him to think that these boys are dead. And this
received a big splash in the papers.
Now [MK] Massalha came back and when he heard what Tareef said he
went on the air and he said that he has met with Abdul al-Hai who
was a PLO general in charge of the front for the PLO in Sultan
Yakoub and al-Hai told him that he captured live Israelis and
bodies. And this thing was hushed up.
As a result of this, the Syrian Jewish community in Israel, who had
maintained very strict silence, decided to go public and they
provided information about what they knew about prisoners. I
called Massalha because, in all due respect, we all know that
sometimes the only correct thing in a press report is the date.
And sometimes not that. Or else what happens is that the headline
writer writes something to catch the eye which doesn't reflect what
was actually in the article. So I called Massalha to confirm and
he gave me more information - more encouraging information than
had appeared in the paper. He would be a good source.
I haven't met him yet but I think that once it opens up a bit I
will meet him in the Knesset. He certainly is very cooperative.
For example. I met one of the Jews who was in the burial party in
the Jewish cemetery in Damascus where they buried these four
coffins. And he said that he was the son in law of the head of the
community. And he was in charge of the matza bakery. And the PLO
came to him and asked for five portions of matzas and other fixings
for the seder. There weren't five known prisoners at that time.
The other interesting thing is this: he said that each hagaddah
came back with two pages missing.
IMRA: Do you know which?
Baumel: No. He didn't remember which. I asked him if it was the
same page in each one , and if so, what, but he didn't remember
which pages were missing but he said that he remembered that two
pages were missing from each hagaddah. So you can draw any
conclusion you want. I don't have an answer.
He also said that when the Syrian secret service found out about it
they called him in and gave him hell for not reporting it to them.
And they beat the daylights out of him. Which was not unusual.
IMRA: He is out of Syria or is he still there?
Baumel: No. His name is Luz and I believe he lives in Holon.
All the reports about bodies that have been checked out have proved
false - all the reports provided by the PLO. For whatever that's
worth. And the army insists on believing the reports. They say
that they are getting it from a good level. Not from Arafat but
they are getting it from Shabak (GSS) to Shabak on the working
level. And they believe them. And its interesting why they
should believe them on this and not on other things.
IMRA: They want to close the file.
Baumel: Yes. Rabin wouldn't let them.
Dr. Aaron Lerner, Director
IMRA (Independent Media Review & Analysis)
(mail POB 982 Kfar Sava)
Tel 972-9-7604719/Fax 972-9-7411645
INTERNET ADDRESS: imra@netvision.net.il
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