Text: State Department: Saudis export hate, restricts religous freedom;
Secretary Powell: not showing displeasure with Saudis

#1 Interview on Al Arabiya with Lukman Ahmed
www.state.gov/secretary/rm/36226.htm
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
September 15, 2004
(3:20 p.m. EDT)

MR. AHMED: Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for this opportunity, and we will start
today with the religious freedom reports that you have just issued. After
the report, the State Department said that Saudi Arabia is a great ally and
cooperating with the United States of America on war and terrorists, getting
that the Crown Prince Abdullah's Government in tolerance and working and
there is a dialogue with the Shia there. Is it not enough for Saudi Arabia
not to be mentioned in this report?

SECRETARY POWELL: Saudi Arabia is a great friend of the United States and
has been for many years and we have nothing but the highest respect for the
Crown Prince and the Government of Saudi Arabia. We have worked together in
so many areas. We are very pleased at some of the efforts that the Saudi
Arabian Government has been making with respect to reform and tolerance.

I have an obligation under American law to examine each country in the world
with respect to religious freedom in those countries. And with respect to
Saudi Arabia, we have been in discussion with them for some time and I was
required under our law, based on the situation within the Kingdom, to at
least designate them as a Country of Particular Concern.

This is not to punish them, or in any way to show displeasure but to state a
fact, and hopefully, through an open dialogue with them, see if there are
not ways to move in this direction where it would not be necessary for me to
make such a determination or such a distinction against Saudi Arabia. But
one should not see this as anything but two friends talking to one another
about a problem of mutual concern.
....

#2 Report on International Religious Freedom
www.state.gov/secretary/rm/36197.htm

Secretary Colin L. Powell; Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious
Freedom John Hanford
Washington, DC
September 15, 2004
(10:30 a.m. EDT)

SECRETARY POWELL: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Today I submitted to
Congress the Department of State's sixth annual Report on International
Religious Freedom. Ambassador Hanford and his team have done an outstanding
job preparing his report, and it is now available on the Department's
website, www.state.gov.

America's commitment to religious liberty is older than our nation itself.
The men and women who journeyed to this new world believed that one's
conscience was sacred ground upon which government cannot tread.

...

With the release of today's report, we reaffirm the universal spirit of our
nation's founding. We reaffirm that government exists to protect human
rights, not to restrict them; and we stand in solidarity with people
everywhere who wish to worship without coercion.

Country by country, this report documents the conditions of religious
freedom around the world.

...

Our decisions are based on a careful assessment of the facts and represent a
fundamental standard of human dignity that all nations should uphold.

Today we are re-designating five countries that, in our judgment, continue
to violate their citizens' religious liberty: Burma, China, Iran, North
Korea and Sudan. We are also adding three additional countries to this list:
Eritrea, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam.
...
The release of today's report underlines our nation's commitment to the
protection of religious liberty. This solemn duty has always defined the
American character and will forever shape our purpose in the world.
Defending the sacred ground of human conscience is a natural commandment to
all mankind, and America will always heed this call.

I would now like to introduce Ambassador Hanford, who will take you through
the report and answer any questions that you might have. Thank you.

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for your remarks and for your
inspiring commitment to religious freedom around the world. It's a
tremendous honor for me to serve you and a President who both have shown
such leadership on this issue.

...
In Saudi Arabia, the government rigidly mandates religious conformity.
Non-Wahabi, Sunni, Sunni Muslims, as well as Shia and Sufi Muslims, face
discrimination and sometimes severe restrictions on the practice of their
faith. A number of leaders from these traditions have been arrested and
imprisoned. The government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities.
Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment or deportation for engaging
in religious activities that attract official attention. There were frequent
instances in which mosque preachers, whose salaries are paid for by the
government, used violent language against non-Sunni Muslims and other
religions in their sermons.
..
Thank you, and I will be pleased, now, to take your questions.

QUESTION: Could you perhaps explain why Saudi Arabia is being listed for the
first time since this process started?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: I cannot comment entirely on decisions that were made
prior to my time coming here, and I have not spoken with my predecessor or
with our ambassadors to Saudi Arabia in the past. I can say that our
ambassadors under this Administration have made this issue a very high
priority.

CPC consideration is an ongoing process, and since I have come here, it's
been a matter of traveling to Saudi Arabia, both myself and my staff,
spending quite a bit of time on the ground there meeting with government
officials, with religious leaders, trying to understand the situation as
best we can. And we felt that the time had finally come to make that
designation.

There are positive developments in Saudi Arabia that we take encouragement
from, but there are a number of problems that persist that we feel place
Saudi Arabia over the line.

Yes.

QUESTION: Continuing on with Saudi Arabia, did you note, just in your time
starting here, was there some upswing that would have pushed them over the
threshold this year and no other year? And was there any consideration given
or any pressure on the process because Saudi is such a staunch ally in the
war on terror?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: There was no particular consideration given. They are a
valued friend and ally. There is quite a bit of cooperation on
counterterrorism, on energy security, regional stability, including the
Middle East peace process, which we value greatly.

But the sort of issues, which concerned us most, frankly, had to do with the
treatment of Muslims in Saudi Arabia. The Shia Muslims suffer the most. Ten
percent of the population, a number of leaders of the Shia Muslims face
arrest. There is widespread discrimination in education, employment and
media, and severe restrictions on religious practice.

Also, Sunni Muslims, who do not practice the official Salafi branch of
Islam, or Wahabi, as it's commonly known in Saudi Arabia, experience
discrimination, as do Sufis. In fact, when I traveled there, a group of
Sufis had just been arrested.

And then, of course, non-Muslims face serious restrictions as well.
Non-Muslims are not allowed to be citizens. You must be a Muslim in order to
be a citizen of Saudi Arabia. There are no public places of worship which
are allowed.

We are encouraged that the government tolerates people of non-Muslim faith
meeting privately, and that they have stated this publicly, and many, many
do, without harassment. But there are cases where there are instances of
harassment and even arrest of non-Muslims. There's confiscation of personal
religious items as people enter the country -- their sacred books. Some
faiths have a particular need for access to clergy. And this is a problem in
Saudi Arabia where that simply is not possible.

We are also concerned about the religious-hate speech that occurs in some
mosques, where Muslims, who are not of the Salafi faith, as well as other
religions, can be in for some pretty severe language.

And we're concerned about the export of religious extremism and intolerance
to other countries where religious freedom for Muslims is respected. And
this occurs in the case where preachers who are funded may say things, which
we view as extreme.

The Mutawwa'in, or religious police, have shown more restraint than is
commonly perceived, but there are still cases where they raid peaceful
worshipers.

And we also look at discrimination in the judicial system. Shia, for
example, do not receive the same treatment as other Muslims. Christians in
an injury compensation case will receive half of what Muslims receive, and
Hindus and Sikhs will receive 1/16th of what they receive.

Yes.

QUESTION: I would like to bring your attention to India.

QUESTION: Could I have another one on Saudi Arabia?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Yeah, let's stay on Saudi for a little while first. Go
ahead.

QUESTION: Aside from the designation and the sort of, you know, branding
somebody as CPC, am I correct that the law itself does not designate any
other retribution, or inflict any other punishment related to this
designation?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: The law requires that within 90 days, and this can be
extended to 180 days, consideration must be given about some sort of
consequence, which often takes the form of the sanction. I would direct you
to the legislation. It's a complicated process. There is a lot of
flexibility given to the Secretary of State in this process, but no
consideration at this point has been given to this.

Go ahead.

QUESTION: With the exception of Eritrea, among all these countries that you
decide are designated as Countries of Particular Concern, Saudi Arabia
seemed to be the only country that is considered the strongest ally of the
United States. What kind of practical measures would you use, since you have
good relationship with the Saudis to influence the situation there, and I
mean you'll be able to change the situation to remove them from the list?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Well, we've been pleased with our ongoing discussions
with the Saudis. As I mentioned earlier, we recognize that there are some
sincere improvements on their part and some efforts to address some of the
problems. You know, Saudi is faced with a dynamic of extremists, and we
understand that, and understand the complications that that brings. But we
look, for example, at public statements that top officials have made,
including Abdullah, Crown Prince Abdullah, promoting tolerance and
moderation.

Also, a national dialogue has been instituted with the Shia, and this has
now been made a permanent institution and we are hopeful that this will
bring about greater religious freedom for Shia, as well as for Sufis and
other non-Salafi Muslims. Half of the textbooks, or actually, over half of
the textbooks have been revised in order to take out inflammatory statements
against non-Salafi Muslims and against other religions and we see that as a
very important step forward.

And also, the government has taken the measure of firing, apparently, a
large number of Imams, which were found guilty of inciting this sort of hate
speech and doctrine; others are being forced to be retrained. And then more
recently, the National Human Rights Association has been established there.

So these are meaningful steps, and we have every intent of working with our
Saudi friends to continuing the dialogue on this and many other important
issues.

Yes.

QUESTION: Ambassador Hanford, with all due respect, the laundry list that
you just laid out there -- it sounds as if you'd almost be taking them off
the list of Countries of Concern, rather than adding them to it. Why did the
U.S. finally decide to make the decision to put them on the list now, in
light of all of the improvements that you've just catalogued?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Well, the improvements don't put them back over the
threshold. They are meaningful. I think it's an important trajectory; it's
an important sign. Some of these are significant and groundbreaking. I think
it shows a change of mentality on the part of the leadership to start taking
some of these issues seriously, and of course, we understand and sympathize
with the price that Saudi Arabia has paid from extremists, just as we have.
And some of these changes are coming, in part, as a result of what they're
realizing is going on within their own country.

QUESTION: But, I mean, is there -- is there no but to all of this, that
despite all of the improvements that they've made --

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: We just feel the improvements aren't adequate at this
point to put this -- put them in a position where they do not deserve
designation.

Saudi Arabia is one of two countries mentioned in the International
Religious Freedom Report where it says religious freedom does not exist.
Now, this is not a scientific term, and this means very different things in
each of these countries. North Korea is the other country. North Korea is a
country where you may have the largest religious prisoner population in the
world, where people are tortured, imprisoned, starved to death. It's a very
different situation.

In Saudi Arabia, that term refers more to the legal restrictions that
religious believers face there. Religious freedom does not exist on the
books in Saudi Arabia to allow people to freely practice their faith
according to the dictates of their own heart. In practice, many are
tolerated, but still there are some, including, in particular, Muslims, who
wind up running afoul of this and can be arrested.

QUESTION: Change to India?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Yes. Let's -- I want to make sure there are not other
questions on Saudi Arabia, first. Is that okay?
Go ahead.

QUESTION: Sir, has the religious freedom situation in Saudi Arabia actually
worsened in the last year?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: There are respects in which these things are always
changing. And, you know, if you look at the number of prisoners from one
year to another, it may get a little worse. As I said, in Saudi Arabia, the
problem is not so much an issue of prisoners, though there are some that
we're very concerned about. It's also, to be a little more precise, not as
much an issue of brutality.

In countries like North Korea, as well as in a number of other nations that
we designate as CPCs, the real issue is the brutal treatment that religious
believers face there. But in Saudi Arabia, it's more a matter of restriction
of religious activity.

QUESTION: It hasn't changed in the last -- since you've been in the office?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: It has changed -- you know, in any given year, there are
more or less people in prison. There is one case we're tracking very
carefully right now that we are frustrated by, that we've been pressing the
government on for the last five months.

QUESTION: So in the last year, is it more or less?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: In the last year, I would say it has remained about the
same, but we are at the point where we have -- we feel like, or at least I
feel like in my time here, we have had an adequate opportunity to dialogue,
to try to understand each other, to work on these problems and we felt the
time had come that Saudi should be designated.

QUESTION: So is it a pressure tactic?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: A pressure tactic?

QUESTION: Yeah.

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Oh, no, no, uh-uh. No, these designations are ones that
we make with a certain degree of sorrow because these are valued
relationships, particularly, in a case such as Saudi Arabia. But the U.S.
Congress has laid out for us a standard that we feel we must follow and we
want to be fair and speak truthfully about that standard. And so, that's why
we find ourselves where we are.

Yes.

QUESTION: You said it's not a pressure tactic, but earlier on you said that
the law allows the Secretary to pursue action, sanctions. Maybe I'm
misunderstanding something -- aren't sanctions pressure?

AMBASSADOR HANFORD: Well, I think when Congress designed the International
Religious Freedom Act, they viewed them as a way in which the United States
takes a stand on this seminal human right and where there is a consequence
to designation. We haven't used the sanction so much as a pressure tactic,
or else we would have already had discussions on what options we would be
considering there.

And as I stated, the Secretary has a broad range of options. There are
certain options spelled out in the legislation, but also there are -- there
is the opportunity to come up with a commensurate action, a waiver. There
are lots of different options that the Secretary may choose from.

...
4/983
2004/985
[End]

Released on September 15, 2004