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Tuesday, May 26, 2009
Interview: "moderate" Ahmed Qureia rejects compromise on territory

The price of peace
By Akiva Eldar Haaretz 26 May 2009
www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1088237.html

Perhaps it is a small coincidence that key Fatah figure Ahmed Qureia (Abu
Ala), who heads the Palestinian negotiating team with Israel, decided to
present the Palestinian position a few days before his boss, President
Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), talks to United States President Barack Obama
about those negotiations.

Since the 1993 Oslo accords, Qureia and Abbas have walked lockstep,
sometimes stepping on each other's toes. At home critics lurk in every
corner, with Hamas on one side, Fatah youngsters on the other, and people
from their own generation who remained outside the territories or away from
power all around.

Both of them gambled on an option of a political settlement with Israel
whose fate - as well as their's - is now in the hands of one man: Barack
Obama.

"Abu Mazen will facilitate again the Arab peace initiative," Qureia said in
an interview Sunday morning, in his spacious office in Abu Dis. "The United
States and the Quartet must adopt and ratify its principles - an Israeli
withdrawal to the 1967 borders and normalization. The border issue is the
key. If the borders will be very clearly defined, I think it will solve no
less than 70 percent of the whole conflict in the region."

Will Abu Mazen present new conditions for renewing the negotiations?

Qureia: "There will be no negotiations without a complete cessation of the
settlements, including what you call 'natural growth.' - Rabin said he would
erect a fence around each settlement, not exceeding 50 meters from the last
house of each settlement - and not expand beyond them. Unfortunately, Rabin
was assassinated. There will be no negotiations without an evacuation of the
outposts established since 2001, and [Defense Minister Ehud] Barak moves
them from place to place. Before the negotiations, Israel will have to
remove also all the internal roadblocks that dissect the West Bank. We shall
not agree to continue in a situation in which Israeli soldiers enter the
Muqata [government headquarters] after Israel reoccupied the West Bank."

Netanyahu said he is not committed to the understandings about borders and
other issues that [former prime minister Ehud] Olmert and [former foreign
minister Tzipi] Livni reached with Abu Mazen and with you. I heard him say
he intends to start the negotiations from the beginning.

Qureia: "Impossible. It's a waste of time. We do not want to negotiate over
a few meters here or there. This is not the problem. We have to discuss the
timetable for the withdrawal, the normalization and how to move ahead
implementing the agreement. I had suggested to Livni that we start the
negotiations from the Taba understandings, but she maintained it was not
clear what had been agreed there and demanded we start from scratch. Bibi
proposes an economic peace. I don't understand what that means for people
who live under occupation. His proposal that there be administrative
arrangements, what is this? Power sharing? It's a return to formulas of the
70s. With that, I certainly understand his security demands and we are
working on that with the Americans."

Do you insist on rejecting Netanyahu's demand that you recognize Israel as a
Jewish state?

Qureia: "Livni raised that as well and we said it was not our business. Call
your state whatever you wish - democratic or non-democratic, Jewish or
non-Jewish. It's not fair to demand that we recognize you as the state of
the Jewish people because that means an evacuation of the Arabs from Israel
and a predetermination of refugees' future, before the negotiations are
over. Our refusal is adamant."

Five years ago Arafat said, in an interview with Haaretz, that he
understands Israel is a Jewish state.

Qureia: "But he did not provide it [in writing]."

In 1988 the Palestine Liberation Organization recognized United Nations
Resolution 181 [the partition plan] and that contains the term "Jewish
state."

Qureia: "Please, let us discuss Resolution 181. Livni asked me the same
question and I told her 'Please, let's discuss implementing the entire
partition plan'."

Is the problem the Right of Return or its implementation?

Qureia: "The Right of Return is one of the Palestinians' rights. The
question of how to relate to this right is up for negotiations. We have to
find a balanced formula. Do not believe anyone who presents you with any
position on this matter before we see the agreement's bottom line. This is
one of the rights along with self-determination, the establishment of an
independent state with its capital in Jerusalem. All these are elements of a
comprehensive arrangement and it would be wrong to select one element and
discuss it. You've got to see the whole package that includes, also,
normalization and security."

Do you insist on Palestinian sovereignty over the Temple Mount?

Qureia: "Of course. It's the second most important place for the Muslim
world."

Peace equals security

Do you agree to demilitarize the West Bank?

Qureia: "We call it less arms. But I am sure we shall find a solution. I
believe peace is the best security guarantee."

What will happen if Netanyahu continues to oppose a two-state solution?

Qureia: "Without progress on the Palestinian track you will not make any
progress on any track. I believe you have an opportunity to reach an
agreement with Syria and Lebanon, but if you want it, you must be ready to
pay the price."

And if the Israelis will not be willing to pay the price, and will want to
continue negotiating?

Qureia: "I understand from all the public opinion polls that most of the
Israelis do want peace. This is not a commodity that you pick up in the
street. You have to pay for it. There is a limit to bargaining. We paid 78
percent of the territory [of historical Palestine]. At Camp David, in Taba
and with Livni we agreed on the principle of land swaps. The questions is
what you will take and from where - take the heart? The hand? The leg?"

Do you mean, for example, that in a land swap arrangement you will not agree
that Ariel remain in Israeli hands?

Qureia: "Negotiating the annexation of Ariel to Israel is a waste of time.
Ma'aleh Adumim and Givat Ze'ev must also be part of Palestine. Any agreement
must guarantee our territorial contiguity; leave historical sites in our
hands, especially Jerusalem, as well as natural resources, especially
water."

Do you believe Israel would agree to evacuate Ma'aleh Adumim's 35,000
residents?

Qureia: "[Former U.S. secretary of state] Condoleezza Rice told me she
understood our position about Ariel but that Ma'aleh Adumim was a different
matter. I told her, and Livni, that those residents of Ma'aleh Adumim or
Ariel who would rather stay in their homes could live under Palestinian rule
and law, just like the Israeli Arabs who live among you. They could hold
Palestinian and Israeli nationalities. If they want it - welcome. Israeli
settlements in the heart of the territories would be a recipe for problems.
Israel evacuated all the settlements in Yamit and in the Gaza Strip. All the
prime ministers who negotiated with Syria, including Netanyahu, agreed to
evacuate all the settlements from [the Golan] Heights. So why is it so
difficult for you to evacuate the settlements in the West Bank?

Perhaps because the Israelis see what has happened since they evacuated Gush
Katif and Hamas seized control of Gaza.

Qureia: "If we could present the Palestinian people a peace agreement that
would end the occupation [we could hold a referendum about accepting it].
Hamas has agreed to support a referendum among the Palestinians who live in
the territories and in the diaspora. Hamas is part of the Palestinian people
and will respect its decisions."

Olmert said he had given you the most generous offer on borders but that you
rejected it. Do you expect Netanyahu to give you more? More than 94 percent?

Qureia: "If they want peace, they should pay the price. Where will we have
land for a land swap? Take for example the settlement of Ariel that
penetrates 22 kilometers into the West Bank, or the string of settlements
from Givat Ze'ev to Efrat, that would completely isolate Jerusalem and
sooner or later Bethlehem as well. Do you believe there is one Palestinian
who would support this? I have no doubt Abu Mazen wants to reach an
agreement and he has quiet of bit of problems because of this. He cannot
accept any solution, because he has to sell it to the Palestinian people. A
solution that would not guarantee the Palestinians' basic rights, would play
into Hamas' hands."

Why didn't you reach an agreement with the Olmert government? What stood in
your way?

Qureia: "I believe they wanted to reach an agreement, but time was too
short. [Former U.S. president George W.] Bush started late and they were
preparing for elections. I believe that if Olmert and Livni would have
stayed in office, we would have reached an agreement before the end of 2009.
Without external support, the parties will find it difficult to reach an
understanding on the border issue. I know how difficult the refugee issue is
for you - and for us. Jerusalem is a major obstacle. If Bibi will link
Ma'aleh Adumim and E1 via the settlement of Kedar, what would be left for us
in Jerusalem?"

Olmert said he had made a proposal and that you disappeared.

Qureia: "Not true. Abu Mazen continued meeting Olmert right up to the end
and tried, up to the last minute, to reach an agreement."

Taking out Hamas, and Fatah

What do you think about the position of the head of the Shin Bet security
service, Yuval Diskin, who said that Hamas must be toppled in order to
facilitate a political process?

Qureia: "You can be sure that in that way he will topple Fatah. The only way
to beat Hamas is in elections and this will happen if Israel will let us
improve the living conditions of the people in the West Bank. In addition to
a withdrawal from the A areas [that should be under complete Palestinian
rule] we expect you to transfer C areas [under full Israeli control] to B
areas [where the Palestinian Authority is responsible for civilian matters
and Israel for security] in accordance with the agreement that Netanyahu
signed with Arafat at the Wye Plantation in 1998. The Palestinian population
is choking because of the density. During last year's negotiations we asked
Olmert to transfer some lands from the areas surrounding our towns and
villages. He promised to examine the request and, as always, dragged it out
and nothing happened."

It seems as through even Egypt is beginning to tire of the negotiations
between you and Hamas.

Qureia: "A national unity government of Fatah and Hamas is a precondition
for peace with Israel. Much progress has been made in the negotiations in
Egypt. It was agreed that the PLO is the sole legitimate representative of
the Palestinian people and that the organization would be reformed. We also
agreed that the elections to the presidency and to the Legislative Council
will be held on January 25, 2010, but we still differ on the election
system. There is also a disagreement over Hamas' refusal to commit itself to
abide by the previous agreements made with Israel. Their proposal, that they
will "respect the agreements," does not satisfy us. Egypt proposed setting
up a joint team that would serve as an interim umbrella. The Egyptians made
it clear that they are not willing to be an interminable guesthouse and that
we must reach a decision by July 5. All the Arab states, including Syria,
Saudi Arabia and Qatar, support this."

In the meantime it seems there is an all out war between [Fatah's] young and
old guard, to which you belong, and that the organization is losing the
public's support.

Qureia: "Fatah is the biggest movement in the territories and without it
there would have been no peace process. Those who claim Fatah is dying and
that there is an alternative are making a grave mistake. Fatah won all the
elections in the last three years - in the universities, and in the
engineers', doctors' and workers' unions. The impression that there are
differences between the veterans and the young generation is artificial. It
is an invention of Fatah's rivals, spread by external elements. During the
past year, Fatah went through an extensive reform. For the first time,
hundreds of thousands of members took part in elections all over the West
Bank and in certain parts of Gaza. More than 250 people were elected and the
eldest is 40-years-old. The reform was conducted by those accused of being
in the old guard. The agreement provides that the Fatah congress will meet
on July 1 and that there will be 1,550 delegates there. We have prepared the
regulations and the program, but still have not agreed on the venue."

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