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Monday, January 24, 2011 |
[Livni reveals peace would be farce] Meeting Minutes: Post-Annapolis Plenary Session on Territory |
[Dr. Aaron Lerner - IMRA Reality test. This is what the FM Livni really thought about what peace Qurei: “I don’t mind if Israelis become Palestinian citizens. Let them Livni: “You know this is not realistic. They will kill them the next day.� That's peace in Ms. Livni's mind. Or rather, that's "piece of paper" in her assessment. And thus we reach the obvious question: If Ms. Livni thinks that within the framework of a final peace agreement And if this is the case, why in the world is dos it serves Israel's Meeting Minutes: Post-Annapolis Plenary Session on Territory Summary Qurei: “There are 30,000 people in Ma’ale Adumim. They can live under Livni: “You know this is not realistic.� Qurei: “So take them [out], like you did in Gaza.� Livni: “We are going to [take out many settlers].� Qurei: “If you want peace…I was against this, but Saeb and Samih said we (Later) Erekat: “I agree with Tzipi. We want to continue on a needs basis. We don’t Qurei: “I don’t mind if Israelis become Palestinian citizens. Let them Livni: “You know this is not realistic. They will kill them the next day.� Full text Post Annapolis Monday, 21 May 2008, 1:30 pm Inbal Hotel, West Jerusalem Attendees: Palestinian Israeli Meeting Summary (not verbatim): Following a brief discussion of recent news reports regarding Israels AA: First, let me say congratulations on Syria. TL: Its not official. Talks are going on through Turkey. AA: Who will be first [to sign a deal with Israel], us or the Syrians? TL: Our priority is to end the conflict with you. AA: I think everyone will welcome it. TL: Its being perceived as a victory for Hizbollah. AA: This is the perception, yes. It’s a kind of revolution what they did… TL: This will strengthen Syria. AA: I'm not saying that, but it’s in favor of Hizbollah. So [by extension] TL: Negotiations will help? AA: You mean with Israel? No, I doubt it. SIA: It will help Hamas as well. AA: No, I don't think so. TL: I would like to ask something about the kilometers [i.e., area], AA: This is just a calculation. TL: When you work on numbers, what is the calculation? AA: It is well known to everyone. TL: I ask because I'm told that that we didn't include certain areas. But SE: You're not counting the Dead Sea. What's your number for the Dead Sea? TL: Yes, Saeb, there is a problem with that… SIA: 6,238 sq km. TL: So where is the gap from? What is your [area for the] NML? SE: 66 sq. km. TL: We have 67. SE: When you divide the NML in half, you have 33… AA: Why is this important? TL: I'm told there is confusion about the percentage we use. AA: It will not make a big difference in the percentage. TL: Okay. AA: But what should be well understood is… TL: Sorry, I made a mistake. 67 [sq. km] is East Jerusalem. The NML is 49 SE: That's the difference then. TL: So we decided not to have this argument on numbers. But can I ask, what SE: Let's just use the lines of the 1949 armistice agreement. Is there a TL: Come on, Saeb. Yes, there is a problem with that… I'm just trying to AA: It is in the Latrun and East Jerusalem… and also the Golan Heights. We TL: What is the best way now to continue? I think we have the Palestinian AA: We want two things. We want to see what was offered by your prime TL: Let's take your suggestion and see where the gaps are [between our [DT projects map of Israeli proposal (map shows hashed block over Jordan SE: What is this striped area? TL: The stripped area means it will be discussed after security. AA: As long as you're not going to annex it. TL: I would like to annex it, but it is not to be discussed here. SE: But we're not discussing security today so can we remove it? TL: [Asks DT to remove the hashed area, which he does.] DT: This is the 7.3% map [projected map is virtually identical to what SE: 7.3% according to what? UD: According to our calculation [i.e., minus Latrun NML and East Jerusalem TL: In our discussion, we saw areas [that were not included in your AA: This is not Ma'ale Adumim. ZS: Is this red and white line the Jerusalem municipal line? DT: Yes. TL: What we've done is taken your map and ours, so we can see the [News comes in of 286 new units to be tendered in Betar ‘Illit.] TL: We're giving up the Golan so we need more in Betar ‘Illit. AA: Yes, you make us pay the price. TL: Let's where we are and what the differences are. The good news is that AA: It's not even [limited to] the built-up areas. TL: I know… AA: If you go there today and look, you will see thousands of new units TL: It's not new. AA: We can go there, after the meeting, and I will show you. [Discussion on whether or not there is significant construction going on in TL: This is a place where we have big differences – it's including the UD: Qedumim TL: … Qedumim and all these places. We also have big differences when it comes to the swap. The way Olmert told SE: Olmert said, Gaza and the southern West Bank. SA: The swap is to be next to Gaza and the southern part of the West Bank. TL: We also have some differences in the line. I would like to ask a AA: No – compensation [i.e., in equal territory] is important but not as TL: Jerusalem is not being mentioned here, but that doesn't mean it is not AA: It seems that Nayef Hawatmeh, of the DFLP, knows more about the Israeli [DT zooms in on area of Bethlehem/Etzion] DT: The main difference is that Efrat and Migdal Oz are out, and all the TL: What are the differences in percentages and sq. km? DT: Gush Etzion is about 1.2%... SA: And 54 sq. km. DT: And about 54 to 57 sq. km. TL: And yours is? SA: 23 sq. km… It's not about percentages. You want to take all this empty AA: We don't want to go into these details. TL: Well… AA: Actually, when I see your map, I advise you to go to Syria [first]. It TL: I could have said the same thing when you showed us your map. AA: But I gave. You take. TL: I think we are on the path of minimizing the gaps. This is important. DT: [MISSING] TL: Ma'ale Adumim building area [MISSING] SA: This is not Ma'ale Adumim… AA: This is all of Jerusalem, to close off all of Jerusalem. If this is TL: I think this would be a historic mistake. DT: 32,000. TL: We can discuss how to minimize [the area]. DT: Sorry, it's 38,000. TL: This is one. The other is Giv'at Zeev, which is something that can KE: This is far more than the built-up area of Giv'at Zeev [referring to TL: I know. It's not only the building area. ZS: Why do you have to have the roads, as opposed to access arrangements? TL: We can discuss it. But generally, they are for security considerations. ZS: Do tunnels have the same security needs? TL: I think tunnels are safer. Is that right? [To DT/UD, both of whom AA: There are 30,000 people in Ma’ale Adumim. They can live under TL: You know this is not realistic. AA: So take them [out], like you did in Gaza. TL: We are going to [take out many settlers]. AA: If you want peace… I was against this, but Saeb and Samih said we TL: I know but… AA: Okay, so we wait. TL: The problem [in that case] is that you'll see more and more on the AA: Maybe they will be more practical. TL: Why do you insist on 98%? Why not 92%. AA: That's why I'm saying, I hope peace with Syria is a success. Maybe it TL: If this is the proposal, you think the Arab world will say no to AA: The Arabs and Muslims, they will say [it's not for you to give away TL: I know that you are going to get – not most – almost all of your ZS: That's not the point that Abu Alaa is making. [Notes the main TL: I understand, and I don't underestimate how hard it is for you to do AA: I was against this, but Saeb and others they convinced me. TL: I said “narrow� [the gaps]. It was not done yet. So maybe the thing SE: I appreciate what you're saying, Tzipi. But these experts – us – we TL: We didn't speak about percentages, but basically it's the same AA: One position, the Israeli position. SE: Now, what is the Jordan Valley and Dead Sea are shaded for security. TL: It is not mentioned here but it will be discussed. SE: But it's not calculated in the percentage. TL: The percentage doesn't change dramatically. SE: So the Dead Sea and Jordan Valley are included [in the 7.3%]? TL: Yes. SE: And the Latrun? TL: No. SE: And when you say, go work. Are these discussions going to take a TL: Yes. SE: So what Zeinah is saying about the roads… TL: Yes. This is the best question I heard to today. SE: And this area around Ariel, it is essential for water, especially since TL: Yes. Now I have a better understanding of something than I did before. AA: Here is Giv'at Zeev. They put a boulder on the road to Beitunia. TL: Please put up Giv'at Zeev. I need to see it. DT: Here is Giv'at Zeev. AA: [MISSING] close to the Wall. UD: This is a security fence. It is not a border. Don't take this as AA: How? But they will take [even] Abu Mazen out of his car and make him UD: This was another reality, built under conditions of terror. TL: Our interest in the area is people. SA: There's not many people there. TL: How many? SA: And your line is basically the same as the Wall. TL: The Wall takes about [MISSING]. SA: If it's a question of security, why have special security arrangements? TB: [There are security implications on the ground.] SE: I agree with Tzipi. Unfortunately [MISSING]. We want to continue on a AA: I don't mind if Israelis become Palestinian citizens. Let them stay. TL: You know this is not realistic. They will kill them the next day. SE: If we're going to make an agreement, we need to minimize the TL: [Talking about Jerusalem] In adding it to the common denominator you AA: We can talk. We said some modifications to the line. SE: Let's take a needs-based approach. Are we going to be guided by TL: To take into consideration our needs and your needs. SE: Okay. Yes. [END] |
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